Photography is more than a medium for factual communication of ideas...

[MX5]

Re: Photography is more than a medium for factual communication of ideas...

I'm afraid all of this talk about 'creative', 'art' etc is totally lost on me. As with paintings ... I just don't see anything [or indeed in many cases the point] other than a painting. Okay I'm trained in science & technology which may make me a prime candidate for being an artistic philistine. A photo is simple a snap shot of where photons landed on silver halide or a sensor or whatever. It is just a record of what the lens and camera captured. My composition is mine ... others might say I’m not following the rule of thirds or having lines of interest etc. They may say that my exposure is all wrong and It’s out of focus in places. Told you ... I’m a philistine when it comes to all things art. All these rules are a bit like The Emperors Clothes.

Best put the Kevlar jacket on ... I suspect there will be incoming any time ;-)

[Trevoreast]

Re: Photography is more than a medium for factual communication of ideas...

Photography means different things to different people.
I'm sorry I have nothing more worthy to add to this interesting debate.

Trev

[MX5]

Re: Photography is more than a medium for factual communication of ideas...

Trev - Your first words sums it up perfectly. [Naturally IMHO]

[Trevoreast]

Re: Photography is more than a medium for factual communication of ideas...

Trev - Your first words sums it up perfectly. [Naturally IMHO]

Hi MX5,
I wasn’t trying to sum this discussion up, or draw a line under it.

Having studied the backgrounds of a few of them, I’m afraid I don’t relate to many of these “household name photographers” from the past. I view many of them as “the idle rich” engaging in what was a very expensive, exclusive hobby while their parents tried to find them someone equally rich to marry.

Some, but not all “esteemed conflict/ war photographers" who captured the extremes of human suffering and misery, fall into the same bracket for me. Friends in high places, coupled with a sense of adventure, maybe I’m just jealous.

A topical example is David Cameron employing one of his chums as his private photographer.
£35 K at the tax payer’s expense, in these “times of austerity”.
Give it five years, and that photographer will become a household name when he publishes a book of mug shots of Cameron.

I also feel people are more concerned with getting the best lens and camera, than they are in getting an image that says something.

When I said “Photography means different things to different people”.
For some people it seems to be all about equipment, talking about equipment, dreaming about equipment, and buying equipment. There’s no law against that, and I quite enjoy it myself.
The major “fly in the ointment” is that, for the vast majority of “consumers of photography”, it’s all about the images, and often IQ is way down the scale of importance compared to content.

Many people use cameras, as a way to record their holidays, children growing up, birds and animals, and scenes they have witnessed while out for strolls. I don’t view this as “less worthy” I do it myself and thoroughly enjoy it.

With the birds and animals I think there is a "hierarchy of subjects". e.g. A Kingfisher trumps your pigeon or sparra LOL.
We see this subject hierarchy throughout the photographic genres.
In Portraiture, a beautiful model or a wrinkly older character, will invariably trump a “plain Jane or John”.

I'm afraid all of this talk about 'creative', 'art' etc is totally lost on me.

The whole “photography * creative art” thing for me isn’t about a “higher” or more aloof form of photography.
It’s just about getting something a bit different to the bog standard, or making more of an effort, as someone has already said.
I’m guilty of laziness on that score, and I reserve the right to be.

For some photography is about art, recording, making money, or just passing the time.

Trev

[Nathaniel]

Re: Photography is more than a medium for factual communication of ideas...

Trev, you have really gone to town with your most admirable and frank ramble. I cannot but agree. I am only surprised that you have not drawn any allusion to what I consider as rubbish that is appearing on X factor!! Also, there is quite a lot of pop music that seems to go down the road of "history" as soon as they appear. The problem is that there are many people with too much money (youngsters at that) who buy this sort of music. The same will hold good when the personal photographer of David Cameron publishes his book of "David Cameron- Your Prime Minister". If the public don't buy his book, that will be the end of the matter.

[briansquibb]

Re: Photography is more than a medium for factual communication of ideas...

I like taking plane Jane subjects - because no one else does. Give most photographers the choice between a kingfisher or a sparrow and we know which they will choose. I prefer to take candids over still life as anyone can take a contrived still life, whereas candids are only there for the fraction of a second. I started as a papazzi son taking pictures of parents family and pets.

When I take candids I always aim for character over form - whether human or animal

Historically photography was the hobby of the rich man because it was expensive and in reality still is at the top end - however I wouldn't decry somebodies photos just because they were rich with expensive kit anymore than I would praise them because they were poor with cheap point and clicks. I wouldn't get into the world of kit envy as it will not help your photos. You just have to do the best with what you have and work out ways round any limitations.

With candids, IQ is of secondary importance as it is the moment that counts, good IQ is the icing on the cake - which is why people go for the best equipment to help them with that. I dont see that as a fly in the ointment

I think we should look at other peoples images and see if their output could help us with ours - that is the way to evolve our styles in the fastest way. I see 'creative' as describing in this thread as moving from the 'text book' compositions to perhaps a more unconventional style. I remember when there was a whole flurry of 'half face' portraits leaving dead space in the picture for editorial over text. Recently there has been the moves for the very heavy (photoshopped) skies and the silky waterfalls/river/sea. Are these fads or genuine improvements?

"For some photography is about art, recording, making money, or just passing the time.Trev"

For me it is about communication which is why some of my best pictures (IMHO) have been the least liked by 'serious' photographers

[Trevoreast]

Re: Photography is more than a medium for factual communication of ideas...

Trev, you have really gone to town with your most admirable and frank ramble. I cannot but agree.

Hi Nathanial,
It’s so much of a ramble I haven’t made any points, except: photography means different things to different people.
I might of engaged in a bit of “bashing of the idle rich, household name photographers of the past ” along the way.

When I say “idle rich” I mean people who could devote their entire lives to being: amateur sleuths, explorers, and photographers because they didn’t need to work . Lucky bleeders !

The problem is that there are many people with too much money (youngsters at that) who buy this sort of music.

I think the problem for the artists is that these youngsters outgrow the product relatively quickly.
The opportunity for Cowel / x-factor is that there is a new batch of youngsters coming along to fill their shoes.

Some of these "talent show discoveries" do stand the test of time though.

Trev

[briansquibb]

Re: Photography is more than a medium for factual communication of ideas...

"When I say “idle rich” I mean people who could devote their entire lives to being: amateur sleuths, explorers, and photographers because they didn’t need to work . Lucky bleeders !"

Ah - you mean us pensioners then

[Trevoreast]

Re: Photography is more than a medium for factual communication of ideas...

Ah - you mean us pensioners then

No not pensioners, just people who've never experienced working for a living, proper toffs like Sherlock Holmes and Ansel Adams.
Trev

[Nathaniel]

Re: Photography is more than a medium for factual communication of ideas...

Trev, I agree with your sentiments; same goes for Brian.S. This is a photo forum but a bit of gripe now and again, only serves to spice up this forum. Long may it live and continue to give inspiration to photographers like me and all the other newbies and "getting better" newbies.

As I know that you Trev are a music lover, like me, I would support a talent contenst like BGT but not X factor types. Before I invest in a CD or similar I will ask myself the question whether I'd like to listen to that sort of music for any length of time. Most pop to me is a big thud,bang and big big noise IMHO. When I listen to music or a live performance I'd like to be carried away into another world!! That to me is ENJOYMENT!!
Similarly with photography when I look at an image I like to admire,wonder and be carried away to another world; I'd also set my mind to take a similar sort of photo in due course. I hope I am not talking nonsense and upsetting people- not my intention at all.

In passing I'd also like to mention about the pleothera of autobiographies which are being spewed out so often and so frequently by people who are not even WET behind their ears-for example Gareth Gates, Katie Price akka Jordan, Peter Andre, John Barrowman, Alesha Dixon, Lewis Hamilton to mention just a few. The encouragement for this is WE the buying public.

IMHO I like and take photographs of subjects I like, taking some inspiration by looking at photos posted in this forum and asking for advice by perhaps very silly and stupid questions.

[eeyore]

Re: Photography is more than a medium for factual communication of ideas...

Thanks all to those who contributed. I'll have to think of another one to keep things interesting...
Keep those thoughts coming...

[Les McLean]

Re: Photography is more than a medium for factual communication of ideas...

An interesting discussion, with some good arguments for the defence & prosecution, and it seems the jury is still out.

My twopennorth is that the saying 'The image is everything' is my way of looking at an image, if it says something to me, stirs some emotion, or tweaks my curiosity, then it's worked, regardless of the journey the photographer took getting to the final image.

I dislike certain 'creative' techniques, such as HDR processing, or overly smoothed skins (glamour glow) , but really appreciate very good creative post processing, particularly moody, gritty black & white portraits, stacking images in macro-photography to create depth of field, and anaglyph 3D images all rock my boat.

I will disagree with one of your original statements :

It is my view that many members in this forum do not really see photography as a 'creative art', nor have they learnt to 'see' (not that they have to, but...). However, this does come with practise

I don't honestly think that being able to 'see' an image can come with practise, I think you can practise the techniques of image building, and practise can hone your skills in seeing, but can't give you the ability to 'see'.

[eeyore]

Re: Photography is more than a medium for factual communication of ideas...

Just to keep this interesting, I'd like to mention, that in reference to Ansel's quote computer processing is irrelevant in this particular situation as when he said this, digital processing was not an issue. Of course today is, but in my view, it is a different kettle of fish and should not been compared to taking a photo in the first instance. I think it takes more skill to 'see' a photo at the time of shooting, rather than 'creating' a photo in PS.

Post Processing, with all the available software these days, most certainly opens up the world of creativity and is also available to a lot of punters, so I also think this can change the meaning of creativity. Some people do this really well, others do this really badly...

Creativity may also depend on your inner soul - some people have this innate ability and others do not.

Perhaps I should also add, that in taking a photo, his quote was relevant to film, where 'seeing' was more important and 'creativity' coming from seeing.
Once again, digital has shifted the boundaries and meaning of creativity.

[Glenn]

Re: Photography is more than a medium for factual communication of ideas...

Post Processing, with all the available software these days, most certainly opens up the world of creativity and is also available to a lot of punters, so I also think this can change the meaning of creativity. Some people do this really well, others do this really badly...

So the darkroom doesn't count then???

Perhaps I should also add, that in taking a photo, his quote was relevant to film, where 'seeing' was more important and 'creativity' coming from seeing.

Ah but Ansel's seeing wasn't just through the camera or his naked eye but with his minds eye and what he could do in the darkroom.

It's funny how people who say "you can do a lot more with digital because of photoshop than you could with film", don't actually know what could be done with film in the darkroom.

[MX5]

Re: Photography is more than a medium for factual communication of ideas...

Glenn - so true - BUT the hours and hours I spent in a cold 'dark' darkroom just 'playing' (and making strange brews) ... which you can now do in 3 minutes with PS ... I think that's the big difference.

Each technique has its place ... the wet darkroom and the digital darkroom. Actually when I'm processing my raw (in the context of digital) images I do tell folk who are keen to see where I've been that I'm slaving in the darkroom. Ah the days when a roll of 120 went off to Will R Rose ... and weeks go by before the postman appears with the results.